Curse

Winterclaw · Aug 13, 2009, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I've got a question pertaining to Obama's Health Care / Death Scare... Don't we already have a failed government run medical system in the us, aka the VA? You know, the group that had that veterans hospital that had all that mold and was crawling with rats and roaches. I just googled VA horror stories and got about 3 million results.

Even if you support government run health care (insurance), shouldn't we fix medicare, medicaid, and the VA before we even consider taking on any more burdens? Last I heard the US was running a 1.2 trillion dollar deficit for this year. It's not like we have the money to burn anyways.

Faer · Aug 13, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

It's not like we have the money to burn anyways.

Oh, but we do! You see, we have as much money as we need. It just happens to not exist yet. Don't fret though; a quick call to the Federal Reserve, and we can get as much as we want!

Black Metal · Aug 13, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

these types of things make great headlines and rallying cries, but boiling it all down the 'we have to fix A before moving to B' is such an oversimplification.

If by 'fix' Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA you mean make perfect, they will never be perfect. They are huge bureaucracies, and there are always going to be situations that slip through the cracks, or isolated injustices. But bye and large, they help and get the job done. They aren't Utopian, but a little realism and pragmaticism puts them into perspective.

And it's also simplistic to think the US Govt can only take on one task at a time. They can work on improving Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA (which they are) while simultanously working on the single-payer public option....while fighting two wars....while taking care of all the other entitlement programs, legislation, etc etc.

As for the Fed, there was a very knowledgable guest on Coast to Coast a few weeks back who knows more about the creation, history, and workings of the Fed than anyone on Wall Street. Don't worry about a supply of loans and cash from them to the government any time soon (the Fed is totally seperate from the gov't btw).

Snow Bunny · Aug 13, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO Obama.

That's all I have to say these days.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 13, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO Obama.

That's all I have to say these days.

You should be saying,

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE Obstructionist Republicans,
who still can't believe that they lost as much as they did in the last election and like spolied little children now will throw constant tantrums.

Snow Bunny · Aug 13, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

You should be saying,

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE Obstructionist Republicans,
who still can't believe that they lost as much as they did in the last election and like spolied little children now will throw constant tantrums.

Oh please.

Left wingers are allowed to protest whatever they want - protest wars, corporations, rallies, you name it, they'll protest it.

People don't want socialized medicine and the left goes, "OH MAN OH GOD THEY'RE PROTESTING THIS IS SO UNCALLED FOR."

Seriously. Millions of Americans do not want socialized medicine. We as a nation DO NOT OWE 1/6 OF OUR COUNTRY SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights is "healthcare" a provision, nor is it even mentioned. Gun ownership is, but that won't stop the left from trying to quash it eh?

EH?

Hypocrites.

Black Metal · Aug 13, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

risky, here's a reality check:

Dems have the majority in both the House and Senate. If a vote went purely along party lines, both branches could pass the bill. It's the 'blue dog Democrats' who have sided with Republicans that kept the bill from being passed before the summer recess.

Rocky Raccoon · Aug 13, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

The point being that a good lot of the neagative misinformation is coming from the right who are in bed with the big insurance companies and HMo's. One of the biggest and most absurd bits of misinformation is "the end of life counseling". You have people protesting that they don't want government running insurance, but don't touch their Medicare. If nothing is done now in 5 or more years you will be working just to pay your healthcare insurance.

Eskimoz · Aug 13, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Left wingers are allowed to protest whatever they want - protest wars, corporations, rallies, you name it, they'll protest it.

People don't want socialized medicine and the left goes, "OH MAN OH GOD THEY'RE PROTESTING THIS IS SO UNCALLED FOR."

Protesters in general are usually made out to be unreasonable, left or right. Personally I think there's a difference between....

"Hey we really don't like this socialized medicine bill"

and

"OBAMA IS GOING TO KILL ALL THE OLD PEOPLE!"

Quote:

Seriously. Millions of Americans do not want socialized medicine. We as a nation DO NOT OWE 1/6 OF OUR COUNTRY SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.

Majority rules, minority rights.

Quote:

Nowhere in the Bill of Rights is "healthcare" a provision, nor is it even mentioned.

That's not a reason not to have it

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Today's liberalism manifests itself as leaning towards socialist practices, which are generally incompatible with a free market system. Our country is simply too large for us to be practicing total health care and very high tax rates.

Look at France - it is drowning in its social bills. While not completely socialist, workers have the advantage over employers. When Sarkozy made a speech about having to work harder, he was heckled.

In France they're given 36 hour (or something ridiculous) workweeks, 3 months vacation, and it's extremely difficult to fire someone. People don't deserve that. If you're shit at your job you should be fire, but oh no, not in France.

Look at Sweden/Denmark. They're completely socialist, but it's nigh-impossible to own a car there (100% tax on goods over a certain price). Denmark works because most of Denmark's populations are Danes - they share common cultural ties, a strong Scandanavian work ethic, and everyone who takes out of the system puts in.

When migrants were coming from Morocco and Algeria, up through Spain and into the Northern European socialist countries, they were taking out of the system and not putting in - so guess what? The Danes enacted very harsh legislation against migrants, specifically Muslim and African migrants, because the socialist system does not work with so many variables. France is having the same problems - it is writing out welfare checks to immigrants who don't do the same paltry amount of work that your average frenchman does.

Now, apply that to the United States. California is drowning in debt (I should know, I live in Los Angeles) due to the fact that we have so much liberal legislation providing for these immigrants and the poor. Section 8 housing, medical care, food stamps, the list goes on. Most immigrants do not pay income taxes or home taxes.

No, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that. We do not need more liberal policies. We do not share collective values as a society, and too many take out of the system, and it's a few people putting in to support them (10% of the country pays 80% of the taxes).

We need a bit more corporate accountability and stricter immigration laws, and less fighting, seeing as that's pretty damn expensive to.

^ this is a pretty good summary of why we don't need more government-run programs in this country, especially one as large and far-reaching as socia *ahem* nationalized health care.

ESPECIALLY when less than 15% of the country would benefit from it.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2009, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

If nothing is done now in 5 or more years you will be working just to pay your healthcare insurance.

GOOD!

You should have to pay for it! The government shouldn't have to pay for it. You should have to pay for a service.

Winterclaw · Aug 14, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

You have to pay for it no matter what. Might as well pay for it yourself to get some say in the matter than let someone else decide for you.

Songbringer · Aug 14, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh please.

Left wingers are allowed to protest whatever they want - protest wars, corporations, rallies, you name it, they'll protest it.

People don't want socialized medicine and the left goes, "OH MAN OH GOD THEY'RE PROTESTING THIS IS SO UNCALLED FOR."

Seriously. Millions of Americans do not want socialized medicine. We as a nation DO NOT OWE 1/6 OF OUR COUNTRY SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights is "healthcare" a provision, nor is it even mentioned. Gun ownership is, but that won't stop the left from trying to quash it eh?

EH?

Hypocrites.

Please people are stupid. The idiots you see in the rallies at town halls across america protesting Obama's health care are idiots. Most of them are already relying on socialized medicine. IE Medicare

If nationalized healthcare doesn't work why do so many other countries have it and have successfully utilized it for many years.

Shursh · Aug 14, 2009, 02:34 AM // 02:34

^ read the sweden/denmark part of Snow's quote i posted and you'll have your answer in a nutshell.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbringer

Please people are stupid. The idiots you see in the rallies at town halls across america protesting Obama's health care are idiots. Most of them are already relying on socialized medicine. IE Medicare

If nationalized healthcare doesn't work why do so many other countries have it and have successfully utilized it for many years.

start naming countries that have successfully utilized it that have comparable socioeconomic political systems.

go.

I dare you.

awesome sauce · Aug 14, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Wow, this topic came in a bit late on this forum eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

start naming countries that have successfully utilized it that have comparable socioeconomic political systems.

go.

I dare you.

On a different newsgroup I belong to, whose posters are mostly european, there seemed to be an overwhelming approval for health care in their countries. I realise that they don't represent the populations of their respective countries, but I do believe it's not the disaster some people paint it out to be.

Snow Bunny · Aug 14, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome sauce

On a different newsgroup I belong to, whose posters are mostly european, there seemed to be an overwhelming approval for health care in their countries. I realise that they don't represent the populations of their respective countries, but I do believe it's not the disaster some people paint it out to be.

france, and northern european countries, right?

doesn't count.

awesome sauce · Aug 14, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

france, and northern european countries, right?

doesn't count.

Some from northern Europe and France, a lot from UK (although one person, despite his personal praise, said that he thought popular opinion of the NHS was low), spain, canada, and australia.

One person brought up the fact that currently the US is spending almost as much per capita on its current "socialized medicine" system as Brittain's system, as the extra high insurance costs and other hassles that go hand in hand with our system get in the way.

I assume that a lot of people on this forum are either in college or high school. Keep in mind that after college most family health plans don't cover you any more. I know a lot of my friends who have graduated aren't covered because they're too busy paying off loans to pay for health care.

Evasion Twenty · Aug 14, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

I win

Winterclaw · Aug 14, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome sauce

I assume that a lot of people on this forum are either in college or high school. Keep in mind that after college most family health plans don't cover you any more. I know a lot of my friends who have graduated aren't covered because they're too busy paying off loans to pay for health care.

Well, the US government has just become the sole provider of college loans in the US. They'll forgive the loans... just so long as you become a government employee or work for a state certified "charity", like acorn, for 10 years.

And if you don't, they have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want in interest.